CPRR Discussion Group

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2010-03-07T07:56:00.001-08:00

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CPRR & UPRR went broke and consumed millions of taxpayer dollars vs. debt repaid plus government windfall

2010-03-05T18:58:00.000-08:00

Hillsdale College Professor Burt Folsom writes that " ... James J. Hill privately financed his Great Northern Railroad–the only transcontinental railroad never to go bankrupt. By contrast, the Union Pacific and Central Pacific Railroads–with massive federal aid–both went broke during the 1890s and both consumed millions of taxpayer dollars in financing."

By contrast, our understanding is that the Central and Union Pacific Railroads did not receive government subsidies because the government railroad bonds had to be and were repaid in full with interest, that according to the U.S. Supreme Court the government and the railroads shared equally in the increased value of the land grants, and that the U.S. government got a billion dollar discount on mail and other transportation costs. So although the CPRR spoke of a "subsidy" in their bond prospectus, the net economic result was that the bonds were a repaid loan (not that the railroad didn't attempt unsuccessfully to avoid repaying), the worthless western lands to the extent they were made valuable by the completion of the railroad (much was so arid that it remained worthless), more of the value went to the government and eventual landowners than to the railroad, and the U.S. government received a financial windfall due to the prolonged subsidy that the railroads provided to the U.S. government for its transportation costs as part of the deal to fund the construction.
See,
No government subsides for CPRR or UPRR;
Role of government in railroad financing.

"Railroad Reorganization: Union Pacific." By Stuart Daggett, Ph.D., Harvard Economic Studies, 1908, states on page 256 that: " ... the government debt was paid off in cash ... both principal and interest were paid in full." Regarding the CPRR and Western Pacific RR, Tutorow, p. 1004 reports that final payment to the government was organized by a commission appointed by an 1898 act of congress, determined to be $58,812,715.48 on Feb. 1, 1899, and that the complex transaction was completed on February 1, 1909 when the last of the government debt was duly paid.
See,
Cost;
Dollars per mile of track;
Railroad Reorganization, 1908.

So which is correct? Did both the CPRR & UPRR go broke and consume millions of taxpayer dollars or was the debt repaid in full plus the U.S. government received a financial windfall due to the prolonged subsidy that the railroads provided to the government for its transportation costs through the mid 20th century?

CPRR Discussion Group

2010-03-01T00:01:00.000-08:00

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CPRR Museum Category Tags:
Transcontinental Railroad
Central Pacific Railroad, Union Pacific Railroad
Railroads, Trains, Locomotives
History of the American West, Chinese railroad workers
Photography, Photographs, Stereoviews, Stereographs
Central Pacific Railroad Photographic History Museum
Central Pacific Railroad Photographic History Museum

Central Pacific Railroad Photographic History Museum.
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The Crescent Limited"

2010-02-27T09:43:00.000-08:00

From: "C Perry" cperry39402@yahoo.com

My elderly neighbor bought a large print of a railroad station with what looks like 1930's cars near it & I told him that I would "look it up." It was titled The Crescent Limited and signed (what I think was) Davard Taunton – do you know where this is located? ...

—C. Perry

Southern Pacific Railway, Orange County CA lines

2010-02-25T22:36:00.000-08:00

From: "Von Bitner, Theodore" Theodore.VonBitner@ocpw.ocgov.com

I am very interested in the history of the Southern Pacific Railroad through what is now Huntington Beach, Orange County, California. In particular ... about the Smeltzer Branch along the Pacific Ocean coastline. I am very curious about the physical structure of the railroad between Newport Beach and Huntington Beach with respect to any bridges that my have been built along that stretch of the railway. This particular stretch of the coastline appears to have been a sand spit and I interested to find out how the railroad was essentially built on the beach. ...

Ted von Bitner
Chief of Monitoring Programs
County of Orange - OC Watersheds Program

New website SepiaTown - Over 150 mapped historical San Francisco images for you to explore!

2010-02-24T13:36:00.000-08:00

From: "Sepia Town" sepiatown@gmail.com

We're writing to tell you about a new historical image website we've built that we think you and the followers of Central Pacific Railroad Photographic History Museum will be interested in (love your site, by the way)...

Homepage ...

A sample San Francisco image on the site ...

SepiaTown is a website (mobile version coming soon) that lets people experience the past through a large and growing collection of user-submitted, mapped historical images.

We already have over 150 mapped San Francisco images in the collection for you to explore, plus images from a host of cities around the world.

In the coming months we'll be adding a number of new features to the site: mobile version, filtering by date and media type, film and audio upload, plus individualized pages for registered users.

If you have historical images you'd like to share, we invite you to upload, map and share them through the SepiaTown collection. Registration is fast and free, and our upload and mapping process is as easy as pie, and each image features a link to your site (if you so choose).

Learn more about uploading images

Please feel free to contact us with any ideas or questions. If you like the project, we'd greatly appreciate it if you could help us get the word out.

We hope you enjoy the site,

SepiaTown Co-Founders
Jon Protas
Eric Warren
Eric Lehnartz

Historical Address for CPRR at 303 Broadway in NYC 1870

2010-02-23T12:07:00.000-08:00

From: swnort@comcast.net

I am researching a mid 19th Century painting that had an association possibly with 303 Broadway as it existed in the period of o/a 1850-60. I note that CPRR's 1870 address for its NYC office was at 303 Broadway.

I note the voluminous and interesting materials available on your website, but couldn't see anything regarding history of the various physical office sites. Thus, I was wondering if you might have any such information for my research regarding that building at 303 Broadway (i.e. pre/post 1870 building description, occupants, even immediately adjacent buildings*, etc.) That particular area/time was one where there were many artists and theatres in that area of NYC, but the NYC Landmarks Commission does not have this address within its current designated areas.

Thus, any historic info on the building itself would be much appreciated.

(* I am also trying to determine the same information regarding the mid 19th Century address of 289 Broadway which Landmarks advises that currently they show as "not a valid address.") ...

—Phil Norton, Frederick MD

Hart and the Burlington Railroad

2010-02-22T13:50:00.000-08:00

From: "Glenn G. Willumson" gwillumson@arts.ufl.edu

I am working on a travel book, A Traveler's Own Book, that the Central Pacific Railroad photographer Alfred Hart published in 1870. In particular, I'm trying to get a date for when it stopped publication, and I have come across a clue that I'm hoping someone can help me with. In what I think is a later edition of the booklet, the map in the back has the Burlington & Missouri Railroad bypassing Omaha and going through Lincoln, Nebraska before heading north again and linking up to the Union Pacific and heading west. Does anyone know when this bypass of Omaha was completed?

I appreciate any help you can give me.

—Glenn Willumson

Old Union Pacific and Southern Pacific publicity photos

2010-02-21T18:40:00.000-08:00

From: "Vivian Schueler" vschueler@wi.rr.com

We have Union Pacific and Southern Pacific Railroad publicity photos and are trying to find out what they are worth. Can you help us or direct us. Any assistance you can give us would be greatly appreciated.

—William Schueler, Jr.

Texas and Pacific Railroad step stool

2010-02-20T17:05:00.001-08:00

From: "Pat James" jamesgang@sstelco.com

We have a T&PRY (Texas and Pacific Railroad Co.) metal Conductor's Boarding step stool, or sometimes, called a Pullman step stool. It has been in our family for at least 60 years. We can't seem to find out anything about it. Could you please direct me in the right direction to find out more about it and what is its worth. I have searched Google and just can't seem to get in the right hole. I did find out that Texas and Pacific Railway was the only railroad in Texas in 1871, then was merged into the Missouri Pacific in 1976. ...

—Pat and Gary James

Construction of the transcontinental railroad

2010-02-18T23:13:00.000-08:00

From: "Jennifer Lair" lair@xmission.com

What was the final cost of the construction of the transcontinental railroad?

How much was paid to the railroad companies per mile?

2010-02-11T12:17:00.000-08:00

From: "Anthony Bageant" abageant@verizon.net

How much was paid to the railroad companies per mile?

Animals

2010-02-09T10:20:00.000-08:00

What were some animals back in the 1870s in Nebraska through California?

Current research on the Sacramento Valley RR since Gilbert Kneiss

2010-02-08T14:21:00.000-08:00

From: "Robert Field" clearfox@dsl.pipex.com

Am researching for an article which in part covers the SVRR. There is a lot of small-scale info available on the net but I am wondering if one of your posters could point me in the direction of a general survey of new material. ...

50' Passenger cars 1800's to 1900's

2010-02-02T12:00:00.000-08:00

From: "Rob Schwab" frome2u4us@yahoo.com

I am working on a model 50' Passenger car by (Roundhouse) and I am interested as to where I could find any information on interior drawings, and to know what type trucks are prototypical for these cars, can you help me with this???

—Fritz Schwalb

Two views of Humboldt House

2010-02-01T23:42:00.001-08:00

From: "jc cain" jccain@bellsouth.net

Have you ever noticed these two views of Humboldt House are exactly the same?

National History Day Project

2010-02-01T16:54:00.000-08:00

... We are working on a National History Day project, and our topic is the First Transcontinental Railroad. We were wondering if we could ask ... a few questions on this topic. We greatly appreciate your help.

Questions:

1) Exactly how many miles did the railroad span from Sacramento to Omaha? And, where exactly did the Union Pacific Rail Co. begin their side?

2) Were there any other ethnic groups who worked on the railroad besides Chinese, Irish, and whites?

3) What were some main obstacles that the rail companies faced as they laid track? What were the weather conditions like?

4) What were some main towns that the railroad passed through?

5) Were there any strikes or protests carried out by the rail workers during the construction?

Thank you so much for your time and assistance!

CPRR Discussion Group

2010-02-01T00:01:00.000-08:00

Welcome to the CPRR Discussion Group at the Central Pacific Railroad Photographic History Museum.

See HOW TO POST to the CPRR Discussion Group.

Color Scheme

2010-01-31T02:15:00.001-08:00

From: "Karen & Dan Dishno" kdishno@centurytel.net

The red background is a no no!!! Makes it very hard to read. Also, not good for those who are low vision. Please get rid of it!

Port Costa & Benicia rail yards

2010-01-28T17:47:00.000-08:00

From: lambsydivy@juno.com

... My husband's grandfather, Frank J. Douglas, was yardmaster for several years in the early 1900's at Port Costa. We have visited Port Costa on several occasions; there is basically no rail yard/buildings remaining at Port Costa. We would really like to see any photos of the Port Costa and Benicia rail yards that transferred the freight via the "Solano". I see a lot of photos of the Solano, but very little of the ports and the port personnel.

We have, in our family archive, three photos of a group of men posed in front of an engine and a small building nearby. There is no identifying information, but we are certain that one of the men was Frank J. Douglas. The family story is that Frank was one of the youngest men ever to attain yard master status. He apparently trained at Denison, TX.

—Bobette Doulas

DRUM, Rail Road Photo Car

2010-01-28T11:44:00.000-08:00

From: "Leah Olson" leaholson525@yahoo.com

I enjoyed browsing your site today...especially the old pictures. I have a question, my father has an old family photograph. The bottom says DRUM, Rail Road Photo Car ... it's printed on stiff card stock type paper. Can you tell me how I can know which rail road car this picture came from? It's of two men ... unfortunately, we don't know who ... we believe it's our Hutcheson family who went through Iowa and into Kansas.

—Leah Olson, Aiken, South Carolina

Google Books - CPRR Documents

2010-01-25T19:26:00.000-08:00

From: kylewyatt@aol.com

A whole bunch of CPRR original documents are up on the web from Stanford University.

—Kyle

CPRR Finance and Accounting

2010-01-21T10:36:00.000-08:00

Inventory of the Central Pacific Railroad Collection:
SERIES ONE: FINANCE AND ACCOUNTING, 1861-1885

A. J. Russell Stereoview #539. "Chinese at Laying Last Rail UPRR."

2010-01-21T09:54:00.000-08:00

From: "Norton Wheeler" Wheeler-N@MSSU.EDU

I am a little confused by all the explanations. ... the photo of the completion of the Intercontinental [sic] Railroad that, according to your website's caption, depicts at least one Chinese worker. ... can you tell me which individual is definitely Chinese? Is this a version of the photo with an enlargement of the relevant section? Is your identification made on the basis of clothing, facial features, or what? Given the quality of the photo, it is difficult for me to make this identification, based on viewing the image on my computer screen.

My purpose is to make the students in my US History survey course aware of the problems that Chinese immigrants faced in the Western United States in the late 19th century, even at the level of public representation. ...

Norton Wheeler, Ph.D.
Social Science Deparatment
Missouri Southern State University

AFT "Tools for Teachers"

2010-01-21T09:09:00.000-08:00

We received a Google Web Alert regarding posting of the following webpage. What of this "Tools for Teachers" description is historically correct and what is incorrect?:

" ... Despite their hard work, the Chinese still faced discrimination. They experienced more difficult conditions than the white workers while receiving less pay for their work. In 1867, the Chinese workers organized a strike demanding higher pay and safer working conditions. The officials ignored their demands and forced them the workers to return to work."